On Health with Houston Methodist

Eating Healthy: What Does 'Everything in Moderation' Mean?

• Houston Methodist • Season 9 • Episode 1

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“Eat in moderation.” It’s a phrase that’s often tossed around but rarely defined — leaving each of us to interpret this vague guideline on our own. In this episode, we dig into the meaning behind the mantra. From portion sizing and balancing macronutrients to figuring out how many “cheat meals” per week is too many, we explore how moderation should play out in real life. 

Expert: Kristen Wright, Registered Dietitian 

Notable topics covered: 

  • Why moderation isn’t a one-size-fits-all approach 
  • The power of balancing fun foods with fuel foods 
  • Where do calories fit in the moderation equation? 
  • How to tackle today’s enormous portion sizes 
  • Tips for analyzing food noise and becoming an intuitive eater 
  • How to build a balanced plate at mealtime and snack time 
  • The consequences of restricting (or overemphasizing) certain macronutrients 
  • The truth about cheat meals 
  • Food psychology: The problem with restricting foods we’re craving 
  • Why a healthy diet is just consistency over time 

If you enjoy these kinds of conversations, be sure to subscribe. And for more topics like this, visit our blog at houstonmethodist.org/blog.

♪ ♪

KATIE MCCALLUM:

Welcome to On Health with Houston Methodist. I'm Katie McCallum, former researcher turned health writer, mostly writing for our blog.

SCOTT CRAWFORD:

I'm Scott Crawford. I'm one of the videographers here at Houston Methodist in the marketing department.

KATIE:

Scott, I have a question for you. When you think of eating in moderation -- very common phrase we all hear. Where does your mind go?

SCOTT:

I guess I think portion control largely, and then maybe just mixing it up a little bit, not eating too much of the same foods. It's hard to put a pin in it exactly.

KATIE:

Yeah, I agree. Even with portion control, in my mind, I go to, like, are we thinking per meal? Is it per week? Is it per day? Like, if I am totally off the rails in the morning, am I off the rails for the rest of the day or -- you know, like, that's where my mind goes of like, what is the time span of moderation?

SCOTT:

Can I just skip breakfast and lunch and then eat a 2,000 calorie dinner?

KATIE:

It's complicated, right? Like, you hear that phrase so often. What does it really mean? I know you and I were talking recently. You have started using an app to track what you're eating. Talk to me about that.

SCOTT:

Basically you get a calorie budget. It sort of determines that based off of like your weight and just estimated body fat. And then you track your foods that you're eating daily and it just sort of gives you a trajectory to go based off of that. I find that it can be helpful to just know what I'm eating. You're putting in every meal you're eating, every little snack, and it's good to know if it's something that's more calories than you expected or maybe it's healthier than you may have thought. And so, I find it's useful for those. And it also keeps track of macronutrients which is a big part of it.

KATIE:

Yeah, so do you think it's helping you eat more moderately? SCOTT: I think it can help. I think sometimes it is kind of a hindrance, just because if I eat a lot of different things, like especially if I go to a party or something, it's like we got chips and dip, we've got -- everybody brought their own dish and we ate a little bit of each one. Like, I'm not gonna sit there and enter twenty different things that I ate. So, you kind of just have to not do any entry that day and just be like,"Well, close enough maybe." Or I just totally blew it, but I'm not gonna worry about it. I definitely think -- I mean, it sounds like a step in the right direction towards eating moderately. My routine lately has kind of been -- or I guess I have approached moderation from the standpoint of,"Okay, I'm gonna try to eat generally pretty well more days than not, more meals than not." But again, it's so vague. And like, you know, and then what's a healthy meal and what's not? And then, you know, yes, like, maybe if I have some hummus, that's healthier than having hot fries. But then if I'm not eating anything else with that hummus, is that moderation?'Cause now I don't have any vegetables. And I don't know, my brain just gets -- as soon as I start thinking about it, I get overwhelmed. SCOTT: Yeah. It can feel impossible I think to nail down, like, what -- sometimes what a healthy meal looks like. I think it can be obvious like a salad with light dressing or whatever is probably healthy. But whenever you get into more complex foods and mixes of dishes, like, eh, maybe this is balanced, maybe this is healthy. Well, I have good news for us, Scott. We are going to get some answers today about what moderation really means. I talked to Kristen Wright, she is a wellness dietitian here at Houston Methodist. And we basically just go into a very simple question with a complex answer of what does moderation look like? Thanks for being here with us today, Kristen.

Kristen Wright:

Yeah, it is my pleasure. I'm very excited to talk about moderation. It's actually one of my favorite things to talk about.

KATIE:

Perfect.

KRISTEN:

So, this is gonna be really, really fun and I'm excited. KATIE: Okay good. I mean, I have a lot of questions. Some of them are a bit anecdotal, but I think generally, I wanna take it up and have a broad conversation about what does it mean when we say eat in moderation? I think about myself. Like, I love tacos, like, I love just like a street taco. Yum. KATIE: Yeah. And I mean, like, my favorite street tacos, I know they're not healthy. They're delicious. And so, you know, for me when I think about moderation, I'm like,"Okay, is that like -- is three tacos too many? Or is it like, okay is three times a week too many?" Like, what are we talking about when we mean moderation? And you know, moderation is exactly that, right? It's not a one size fits all approach for every single person. It's gonna be totally different from person to person. So, it's really hard to put moderation in a box, which is why it's kind of so fun because we can really start to break it down to the individual person and see what types of foods are they actually really liking. What things maybe are they okay to not eat and not incorporate into their daily diets? And I think it's important for us to have all sorts of foods because all foods do fit into this. So, if you want to enjoy your three tacos one day, that's totally okay, but maybe we add something else to it to give it a little bit more of that nutrient density. And that's really what moderation looks like. It's adding to what our favorite foods and especially our fun foods too, because we also have to think about food as something that brings us comfort and joy. And so, cutting out those comfort foods, and cutting out joy from our life, it's not ever gonna work for us long-term.

KATIE:

You know, you're reminding me, we chatted for the blog about -- I think it was like how to eat healthy while traveling, and I loved your fun foods versus -- what was the other category? Fun foods -- KRISTEN: Fuel foods. Fuel foods. Oh my gosh, I loved it.

KRISTEN:

Fun and fuel. Yeah.

KATIE:

Okay, I'm glad this is like, coming up right away because tacos…

KRISTEN:

They're fun. KATIE: Okay. But they can also be fuel too because let's think about all the foods that we put on tacos, and a lot of them are vegetables. So, salsa, that's a vegetable, right? It's your tomatoes, it's your onions, it's your cilantro, sometimes there's jalapeno in there. Pico de gallo is another thing that you add to it. Sometimes you'll add things like cabbage if you're doing a shrimp taco. That's adding some veggie to it. Or maybe you do add something else like the raw onions or the cilantro if you're doing, like, true street tacos. There's lots of ways that we can actually incorporate veggies, even into something like a taco.

KATIE:

Okay, so I am hearing you, kind of, automatically go to veggies. KRISTEN: Yes. So, when we're thinking about moderation, it's not -- I guess like you haven't really mentioned calories yet so I guess I'm kind of like, in a single meal, do I need to be thinking about calories in terms of moderation?

KRISTEN:

I feel like calories are something that a lot of people can hyperfocus on. KATIE: Yeah, I -- Yes. Right? The amount of people that come to me and they're like,"Oh yeah, I'm eating this." And it's about 500 calories. I don't even know what it is in 500 calories of certain things because I'm not necessarily paying attention to it. It's gonna really vary from person to person. Some people can know the caloric intake of certain foods and be totally okay with that. But other people will take those caloric foods and restrict themselves mentally'cause they're looking at that meal and they're saying,"Oh, this is gonna be 600 calories, so now I can't eat this for the rest of the day." And that really puts a heavy restriction on what they're doing. And so, what we really wanna see is being able to enjoy our foods and not necessarily worry so much calorically. One meal typically is not gonna ruin what your progress is and what your goals are.

KATIE:

Okay.

KRISTEN:

And I think a lot of us really hyperfocus on,"Okay, I'm eating this ice cream today so now I need to either work out extra hard, or I need to not eat this for a while. And then we get into this binge restriction cycle that really develops a very unhealthy relationship with food. And unfortunately, we live in a diet culture and a society that tells us restriction is the only way to be healthy, and that's actually not the case, and that's why moderation is so important. But it is gonna look different from individual to individual.

KATIE:

Okay. So, how do I know if I'm eating too much in a meal?[Laughter]

KRISTEN:

So, I like to look at it from a portion plate standpoint. KATIE: Okay. Because a lot of times, specifically with tacos or when you're dining out somewhere, the portions are gonna be very large. And so, we do wanna start listening to our bodies and start intuitively eating. Now sometimes, let's think about the holidays, right? We're gonna sometimes overdo it and we eat a little bit more than what we maybe anticipated eating. But we typically pay for that too. We feel a little bit extra just sleepy and tired, and we may feel like we can't recover very well. And so we can kind of take that as a learning and understand where our body is telling us to stop. So, that's one of those practices that takes a little bit of time for us to actually get back into our mind and focus on what our brain and our gut is telling us. If your gut is feeling overly full and you're hitting maybe an eight or a nine if we're putting your hunger on a scale of one to ten, then it might be time to stop, even if it's really delicious. So, we have to sort of start training our bodies for those satiety cues that we used to have.

KATIE:

I did not do this purpose but I overate at lunch today. And I didn't eat out. I just was like -- we had a bunch of leftovers so I, like, pulled them all out of the fridge. And I don't know, it just kind of -- you know, when you're like picking little different pieces of certain things, and then one of them were like some French fries we had last night. Could not stop eating the French fries. I overate for sure. I feel disgusting. Like even right now, I'm like, "Oh, my God, I'm so full." In those moments, I mean, do you have any tips for us? Like you mentioned, noticing those satiety cues. I think I probably noticed, but I mean like…

KRISTEN:

But you kept enjoying it,

KATIE:

Yeah, like. Do you have any tips for, like, getting it done and like, pushing the fries away?

KRISTEN:

So, I mean, it's gonna be a little bit challenging I think to get used to saying it's okay. We also are in a society where the clean plate club has always been a thing. And that is actually behavior that's been learned since childhood. So, for a lot of us, it's trying to back up and understand it's okay to not eat all of your food. It's funny because I feel really bad about this too, I feel guilty when I don't finish all of my food. I actually threw half of my lunch away today and I feel really bad about that, but I just couldn't eat anymore. And so, I think it's just starting to retrain ourselves to feel that cue in our gut and slow down.

KATIE:

Yeah, I will say I was, like, eating really fast and I was standing while I was eating so I was just like kinda just shoving fries in my mouth.

KRISTEN:

And so, that's -- that is a great way of being able to analyze yourself and say,"Okay, maybe I need to eat a little bit slower. Maybe instead of standing, I need to put myself in a place where I'm seated. I need to put my fork down in between bites. Or just not so mindlessly, you know, eat." If you're sitting there doing something else, right? Which we all usually do, I mean, we're all guilty of working lunches, right? And so, if we're doing something else, we actually find ourselves to be distracted and then we just keep eating, and keep eating, and keep eating. We see this too at home. Think about sitting in front of the TV and doing something very mindlessly. People will grab snacks that are really fun and tasty like chips or even popcorn, which is a great snack alternative actually because it's got some good whole grains and some good fiber in it. But we can overdo that too because we're just sitting there and mindlessly doing it. So taking a step out of some of those things, conversating with people can actually make a huge difference,'cause we when you're talking you're not necessarily always eating. So that can really help too, and just slowing down so that you can actually when your body is starting to hit that point.

KATIE:

I'm glad you brought up snacking because you even mentioned, like, you can overdo it on popcorn, which, like popcorn is kind of a healthier snack but you can still overdo it. I mean, when you're snacking and you're kind of snacking -- I mean, I guess I'll say this. Should you only be eating when you're hungry?

KRISTEN:

Not necessarily. Yes and no. Yes, we should be following our hunger cues, but sometimes we eat for a lot of different reasons, and it could be we're really stressed out, it could be somebody brought in something really tasty and it looks really good, like the cookies or maybe, for here, we have lots of reps come in and they bring lots of stuff from outside. And so, you might have those temptations kind of sitting around. And it's one of those things we have to really self analyze. Is this something that I really want? Is this something that I'm craving? Is this something that could be taken somewhere else? Can I go for a walk instead and be totally fine? Because I feel satisfied, or can I do some other type of movement? Or can I do something else as a distraction and be fine with walking away from that? We have to sort of analyze that food noise and see if it's really coming from a true hunger perspective, if it's really something we're craving, or if it's something we can kind of go without. And it's gonna really depend on the day. So, we have to, kind of, take each and every day to say,"Okay, what type of hunger am I feeling? Am I physically feeling hunger?" Then yes, you should absolutely eat when you're physically feeling hunger. Please do not wait, you know, just because your lunch is typically at noon but you're hungry at 11 A.M. Your body's trying to tell you something so just follow that hunger cue. KATIE: Mm-hmm. Okay. On the other end of it, maybe you're not so hungry and maybe it's just something that looks really good. Some days, you might wanna eat that cookie or have a little bit of that ice cream, or kind of give in almost a little bit to that because we wanna allow ourselves to have those foods. It's very unhealthy to restrict things that we're craving. It really can lead to binge eating later down the road, and if we're trying to build a healthy relationship with food, it is all things in moderation. So, all foods are gonna fit in this and I think if we can analyze those times when we wanna eat them, then that's great. And if we don't and we're okay with going without, then that's also great too.

KATIE:

All right, so overall on the plate or how much we eat, portion sizing moderation. What about macronutrients in the sense of -- let's say for lunch today, I pretty much just mostly ate fries. And let's pretend like I didn't overeat. Let's pretend like I ate until I was full on the fries. Is that -- am I going against moderation there 'cause I did not touch a single piece of greenery, I didn't probably have any protein. So, what would you say around that?

KRISTEN:

I would say that that's maybe not a balanced plate. However, it doesn't make it necessarily a bad thing, but there is room for us to add some more nutrient dense items to those potatoes.'Cause potatoes are really great. They're full of really great vitamins. Now, obviously fried potatoes are gonna be a little bit different than that. But that's okay, they're fun. They're enjoyable, we love them. But trying to add some protein can actually be really beneficial. Protein has a lot of great benefits. The kind of icky thing about macronutrients in general is our diet culture has taken a lot of macronutrients to the extreme. And so specifically with protein, what we see is people are pushing these very, very, very high protein based diets, and it's really unnecessary for most people. So, protein is important, it is a great macronutrient, it's gonna help with your muscle growth, it helps with our cell tissues in recovery. So, protein is absolutely essential, however not as much protein as what's being pushed probably is essential. KATIE: Yeah. I've even seen like, I was buying pasta the other day and it was like protein plus pasta. And I was just like, "What? Like, more protein than it usually has or are they just calling out that pasta has protein? Like so I even believe that?" And it's -- I don't know, it's just so weird. And it's hard with some of the things that they put on the label because we don't know if they're naturally actually coming from those foods. So, something like a lentil or a chickpea is gonna be a little bit higher in that protein. But, if it's a different alternative kind, they could actually be adding in some type of other protein into it to, kind of, enhance that protein amount. So, if it's not naturally reoccurring in the food, it's probably an additive. And we also have to keep in mind that these companies are making money based on all of these trends. And so, being mindful of some of those things. Keto is another one. We'll see that on different types of breads, or tortillas, or things like that will -- they'll put that keto in there.

KATIE:

Mm-hmm.

KRISTEN:

All that really means is there is still carbohydrates in them but they focus on the net carbohydrate, which we don't really talk about a whole lot.

KATIE:

I don't know if I've ever even heard of, like, that.

KRISTEN:

It's very old school, especially old school kind of diabetes. Basically what they look at is the amount of fiber that's in there and they subtract that from the actual total carbohydrate to give you this net number. KATIE: Mm-hmm. Basically what it means is they're pumping in a ton of fiber into these products, and that can be, again, too much of a good thing, it's gonna disrupt your gut and make you feel maybe bloated. Sometimes, constipation. I was actually looking with somebody at a nutrition facts label for a bread that was specifically designed for individuals with insulin resistance. They actually put 29 grams of fiber in one slice of bread.

KATIE:

Woah. And so, like, what -- if you eat two slices of bread, you're like -- KRISTEN: It's a lot. You're supposed to have 25 to 30 grams per day. And that's gonna be at one sitting. So -- What is the benefit of something like -- is it just so they can say it's low net carbs and that's all they're trying to do? KRISTEN: Yeah. And they're also pumping fiber as something -- because we know fiber is so beneficial for our health, so it helps to slow down our digestion, it keeps us full, it helps with blood sugar control. If you've ever heard the term prebiotic, it's just a fancy word for fiber, so it's fuel for our gut bacteria. And most of these fibers are gonna contain both soluble and insoluble base fiber. And so, a lot of these products are gonna have both of those things in there and yeah, they just wanna push it so that they're like,"This is gonna be really good for your health. It's something that we can advertise as keto 'cause it's not gonna spike your blood sugars as much." And everybody wins except for the consumer who eats that 29 grams of fiber. I mean, I was gonna say obviously, you know, moderation with my potatoes, like I know I overdid that. But do we really want people getting their day's worth of fiber at a single meal? Or like is that -- can your body deal with it all at once or should you be spreading it out? We're talking about moderation even then. Like, do we need to be moderating the macronutrients throughout the day? KRISTEN: Absolutely. Okay. KRISTEN: Absolutely. I see this all the time too. With blood sugar control or individuals with diabetes who will save all of their carbs up in a single day for a single meal. It's very not good because we're actually gonna have such higher spikes at that one meal versus the rest of the day, and what we want is consistency. So, that's gonna be with all of our macronutrients, it's not just carbohydrates. It's our fibers, it's gonna be our healthy fats, it's gonna be our protein. And ideally, we wanna be able to have each component at each meal, and add in those good veggies because veggies is something that we just don't get enough of as a society. Yeah, as someone who writes, you know, blog articles all day, every day, I think, like, the last stat I read was like 8% of men and 10% of women eat enough vegetables every day, which, I don't know, that's just crazy to think about.

KRISTEN:

It's hard, it's so challenging.

KATIE:

Especially if you're not eating at home. It's really tough to get -- like -- I just feel like entrees don't come with vegetables anymore. They really don't. You kinda ha -- unless you go get a salad, or you go get, you know, whatever it is where it's a, like, veggie based meal. They're kinda, just like not there, or they'll give you like a tiny little bit of something, but it's clearly not enough, and it's way -- you know, there's way more, like, steak on the plate, or chicken on the plate, and mashed potatoes or whatever else. So, like, I'm guessing that's all part of the moderation equation too? KRISTEN: It absolutely is. And my, sort of, philosophy, if there's ever an option to add in more vegetables, do it. Because even if you're ordering an additional side of veggies, what you're gonna do is you're gonna eat a little bit less of even your protein and your carbohydrate. So, all of that good fiber that's found in those veggies, it's going to really help keep you full. You also get some good fullness from that protein, and then that carbohydrate. If we do something like a potato, that's a little bit more simple, that digest a little bit faster. We're still gonna have that sort of fullness and satiety for a little bit longer, which is also what we're looking for there. So, always add veggies where you can. It's really hard when you're traveling on the go. You do have to sometimes look a little bit deeper into certain places, and options may be limited. And in that case, always just trying to pair some type of snack, protein, healthy fat with your carbohydrate or with a veggie if you can find one. And that's gonna actually help with some of that satiety. Maybe thinking about calories is sometimes not a good thing. But let's say you're a person who wants to try counting calories just to get a sense of what they're eating, you know? And you're -- so, you're tracking things but you're not necessarily saying, like,"I'm gonna stop at 500, but I just wanna know how many calories are in this piece of chocolate and this, you know, burger I had at lunch, and this salad that I had." Is that a good thing or do we get into a negative space with that?

KRISTEN:

I think it's gonna vary from person to person. So, I think, A. it also depends on what your history is. If you have had a history with taking calorie counting to an extreme where it did become some type of eating disorder, maybe not the best option. If you feel like it's gonna cause you to really restrict and feel guilty, maybe not the best option. However, I do actually encourage counting or paying a little bit more attention to food labels for some people just to give them that baseline of where they're actually fitting throughout the day. What I tend to see quite a bit is we self-restrict, and so a lot of people are actually not eating enough for what their body needs specifically. So, we are really, really blessed here to have our InBody machines that we can do so we can actually see what basal metabolic rates are for each individual person, and that's gonna be based on your skeletal muscle mass. So, it's really cool for us because we can see,"Oh, we're actually meeting that target of what your body needs for a day or maybe we're not necessarily meeting that target." So, I think it can be a really useful tool, especially if you're just starting out and you maybe don't realize how much you A. are eating, or B. not eating enough, and it can kind of be somewhere in the in-between. If it starts to become something obsessive, there are some apps out there specifically that will make you weigh every single day. I don't really feel like that's very helpful.

KATIE:

I would not like that, I don't think.

KRISTEN:

Yeah, it's crazy that some of them actually put that out there, and mentally, that can be so draining on us. When we can fluctuate weight every single day just by water intake alone. Or we might be a little bit more stressed, we have a little bit more inflammation, maybe we did an exercise routine and our body has held on to a little bit more and it's still trying to heal and repair. We can have that weight gain. Or maybe you're gaining muscle. If you're really doing this in a way where you're trying to focus on muscle gain, muscle weights more than fat. And so, sometimes weighing yourself daily isn't really helpful. Sometimes -- the same thing goes for calories, or healthy fats, or carbohydrates, or protein. Sometimes focusing so much on that can really start to take a toll on us mentally. And I think that's the second that you, kind of, have to take a step back and say,"Okay, is this for me or is it not for me? Is this helping me or is this harming me?" And that's a very individualized thing. I've actually had some people tell me,"I can't track. I just can't do it. It's not good for me mentally," and I'm totally okay with that. And there are some people that are like,"I just wanna see where I'm at." And that's okay too. So, I think it's that fine balance, right? We always take -- it's all or nothing approaches, and that's what we do a lot of times with our health, we do it with our weight, we do it with how we're feeling about food, and we just have to lighten up a little bit and find that middle ground.♪ ♪

KATIE:

Up after the break. Kristen gives us more tips on moderation.

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KATIE:

Okay, so we have single meal, single snack talked about moderation. Now, I wanna take it out and expand it to, let's say, in a week or maybe a month, I don't know, you tell me. You know, when I'm looking at my diet over the course of a week, and I'll go back to tacos'cause that's just like where my head's at right now. KRISTEN: We'll go to tacos. That's totally fine. I love it. I love it. Let's say I had tacos on Tuesday, today is Friday… KRISTEN: Yeah. And now I'm like,"Gosh, I'm really craving tacos again. Tacos twice a week -- they're not healthy tacos and there's like no vegetables at this place. Is that twice a week a bad thing? Three times a week? I mean, I'm guessing you're gonna tell me it depends, but I'm curious to hear how you would, kinda, talk me through that.

KRISTEN:

I think the first thing I would ask is how do these tacos make you feel and why are you starting to experiencing these cravings right? Because we don't think about food as being psychological but sometimes is it, right? KATIE: No, you're right.[Laughter] No, you're right. Yeah, they don't make me feel great 'cause I eat too much every time. KRISTEN: Okay.

KATIE:

Okay, so how many times per week is that bad to do?

KRISTEN:

I'm gonna challenge you again and not even say times per week, right? Because what I'm kind of hearing you say is that you might be limiting the tacos because you feel like they're not nutrient dense for you and for your body. So, how often are you eating the tacos and enjoying them, or are you limiting them?

KATIE:

I would say I'm limiting them, yeah.

KRISTEN:

Okay. So, that's why you feel like you're overdoing it. So, when we have food in a category that it is a restricted item or it's something that's not gonna necessarily fuel our body well, not only are we gonna crave it a little bit more because there's that sort of emotional component that we're feeling with it, when we do eat it, we also might overdo it.

KATIE:

Yeah.

KRISTEN:

And so, it's not about how many times a week you enjoy it, but maybe you are able to enjoy it a little bit more frequently, maybe like once or twice a week, but do, like, one or two tacos at a time and then add in some of those fuel based foods on the side.

KATIE:

Yeah, okay.

KRISTEN:

So, it's how can we fit these foods into our day to day life, and how can we not restrict ourselves from that? Because if you're only eating the tacos two or three times a month and you feel like you can't control it, then you might wanna actually start adding in those things a little bit more frequently so you can eat a little bit less and still feel satisfied. Another thing you can do is keep slowing down because even with the tacos, if we actually savor them, enjoy them, and then eat something nutrient dense to go with it, we're typically gonna eat a little bit less and we won't feel guilty afterwards.

KATIE:

I'm curious to get your thoughts and just the emotional component to all this. I mean, do you have -- is a lot of your job just helping people reframe their mind around the emotional parts of it and like how do -- where do we start?

KRISTEN:

Surprisingly, yes. I feel like I'm a food therapist sometimes because --

KATIE:

Yeah, I mean it's -- yeah, I could see it.

KRISTEN:

Food is very traumatic for a lot of people, and we're taught a lot of our, kind of, food based knowledge, and not only that but our -- just our feelings and how we use food as comfort as a kid and as a child. And so, a lot of times we'll look back and see if there was something that happened in childhood, or was diet culture affected? How were your parents? You know, were your parents doing these crash diets and these fad diets? Were you around that? Were you around restriction? And a lot of times, it starts with that. And then we have to start to unlearn some of those patterns and build that healthy relationship with food'cause that's really what moderation is. It's not allowing food to actually control us, but us taking that control back over food so that we can enjoy it because food is really something that we all should enjoy, and it can bring us comfort, and it can help us when we're emotional. But when we're using it a crutch, and we're binging it, when it becomes a unhealthy thing, or the opposite, right? When people over-exercising because of something they ate or they're restricting their calories to a very low amount. That's also very unhealthy so we have to find that balance in-between to where we're not experiencing that binge guilt restriction cycle. KATIE: Yeah. It's a good point you make because I would say if I just let myself eat those foods more often but, to your point, paired them with, like, let's say it's, like, broccoli with the taco and I only eat one taco because I'm full with all this broccoli, and maybe some beans, but I do it almost every day of the week or something -- maybe not that much. But, you know, I probably wouldn't overdo it on the thing because I haven't, like, made it the sacred item that, like, brings me all this food joy all at once. Exactly. The amount of times people tell me about their cheat meals and I'm like, "No. We shouldn't have cheat meals."

KATIE:

That was gonna be my follow up question to this so I'm glad you brought it up. I mean -- Okay, so there's the answer. There's no number of cheat meals per week, really?

KRISTEN:

There shouldn't be because if we're actually developing that healthy relationship with food then all food is gonna fit into that category. So, there's not gonna be one day where it's a free for all versus another day where you're not eating hardly anything at all. Our ultimate goal is to fuel your body for what it needs. Now, there are gonna be some days where it's birthdays, or celebrations, or something like that where food is really heavily involved, or maybe it's something you just wanna enjoy, and that's okay. There may be other days where you're cooking at home where you're able to add in a little bit more of that veg and you are able to really make sure that you're fueling your body well. Both of those days fit in our lifestyle. I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, especially individuals who are working, maybe you have a family, kids, you're busy, there's lots of stuff going on, and you're on the go a lot. And we put so much pressure on ourselves that we have to be perfect at every single meal, and that's just not the case. Health is consistency over time, and so food shouldn't be a hindrance, it shouldn't be an additional stressor, but it should be something that just kind of flows and starts to feel a little bit more natural.

KATIE:

I'm glad you said consistency again'cause I think you said it earlier, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. You know it goes with the moderation talk of, you know, moderation is kinda like -- I mean, you can tell me if I'm wrong. But like just being consistent with your choices, and obviously you can't consistently have eight tacos a day or something.

KRISTEN:

Right, that can't work. Right.

KATIE:

But yeah, I like the consistency component to it. I find that I don't really struggle when we cook at home. It's then I like -- anytime I -- we eat outside of the house, I just go crazy 'cause I'm like,"Here's the cheat meal,'cause I'm not at home so I don't need to eat healthy." And I just, you know. And then I come home with the fries and I eat 'em for lunch the next day. KRISTEN: Which is okay. Fries are great the next day. They are, they are. And I always like to use that as a good example, though. Is bringing food home is a really great way to enjoy a lot of those fun based foods in moderation because you aren't eating the full thing at that single sitting. And you know, if you are to add in a little bit more veggie, then you can look at that meal that you're eating and enjoying out and say,"How many meals can I actually make out of this? It's probably two or three if we're actually adding in some of those additional nutrient dense foods. We can also take the things that we bring from eating out back home and then add those nutrient dense foods at home too. So, there's way for us to be able to enjoy all of that. I am all about food. I am a grade A foodie, and I love all sorts of foods, especially cheese. So, you know, if there's gonna be a place for me to go and enjoy those things, I'm gonna do it, but I'm not gonna go home and feel guilty about it'cause we've added things to it, and that's all that this is. It's just what can we add? How can we add fuel to our fun? I do like this idea of consistency and then also I think if I let myself have this stuff more in smaller amounts, I would safeguard it less and I wouldn't try to, like, attack it.

KRISTEN:

That's exactly what it is. It's safeguarding. It's, "Oh, I can only have this this day,"

KATIE:

Yeah, I'm like,"I'm never gonna see these French fries again. I have got to eat them all this moment.

KRISTEN:

Yes.

KATIE:

And it's just silly'cause it's so untrue.

KRISTEN:

But that's exactly what our diet culture teaches us. It teaches us we can't eat certain things, that foods are off limits. If you look at, pretty much almost every diet out there on the market, it is very restrictive of either a single food group, or certain food groups. I mean, it's crazy what this culture has gotten into, and with social media, it's just gotten even worse. It's so bad. And so, we do have to be really careful about what we're also listening to and what we're allowing to influence us because a lot of these influencers that are out there, they don't have any type of background in this. And they're may be sharing their journeys, they're sharing what's worked for them, but one size fits all is just not the approach to health that we need to take because each individual person is gonna be so incredibly different. They have a different background. They might have had a different trauma related to food, or to their body, or something that happened in school when they were a kid and they were bullied, and now it's triggering something. I think all of us have to realize that we all have some little bit of disordered eating within us. And it's just 'caused by what we've grown up in and what our culture has been. And so, it's really important for us to kind of challenge that and challenge some of those mindsets so that we can set ourselves free of that and be able to enjoy food the way that it was meant to be enjoyed in the first place. KATIE: Yeah. I mean, we made it delicious for a reason. Exactly, exactly. It is, it is. And it can all fit in there. And, you know, I think one of the things too is people, especially getting into the fitness and wellness industry, they start working out more, they start doing a whole lot more things, but they don't change their diet at all. They're still restricting their calories and then they're frustrated that they're not seeing any progress. Well, you have to eat when you're moving your body. And so, that's something too. We have to learn how to relisten to our hunger cues. We can't turn those things off because if we're feeling hungry, our body's trying to tell us something. And sometimes we'll actually get sweet cravings if we're a little bit extra hungry.

KATIE:

Yeah. Well yeah, I think you're --'cause your body probably goes into some kind of --

KRISTEN:

It wants simple carbs, yeah.

KATIE:

Oh, man. Okay, I have a question for you then in that regard. I remember someone once telling me that if whenever you have, like, a sweet craving like that, to, like, drink a glass of water and if you still want the sweets, like, have 'em. Like, is that real or?

KRISTEN:

So, the glass of water thing is just to fill up your stomach so that you feel fullness. And if it's coming from an actual hunger cue. I don't necessarily love to take that approach just because, yes, hydration is extremely important.

KATIE:

As we both have our water bottles. Plenty of beverages here.

KRISTEN:

Yes, ginormous waters. And it is important. So, it is important to stay hydrated throughout the day. However, we also need to honor and think about why do you want that piece of chocolate. KATIE: Mm-hmm. What is going on in your head? Can you actually enjoy a single piece of chocolate or do you wanna eat four or five pieces of chocolate? Because that's another thing that we can actually look at. I will do sometimes a chocolate exercise for intuitive eating where we take a piece of dark chocolate, and we take about five minutes to eat a single piece of dark chocolate. I've had people come to me and say,"Wow, I've never had a piece of chocolate taste this good before." Because we eat so quickly that we don't actually savor it and enjoy it. So, can you let that chocolate melt on your tongue?

KATIE:

Yeah.

KRISTEN:

Can you actually enjoy it, and will that satisfy you? That's really the question that we should be asking ourselves, is can we do it just slowly, and let us savor that and enjoy it versus should I drink water so I don't need to eat chocolate? KATIE: Yeah. Yeah. So, just a little bit of an alternative.

KATIE:

So, any other tips that you have, maybe or any, like, pieces we haven't covered about moderation or how to get it done emotionally that we haven't talked about that you wanna share?

KRISTEN:

I think it's all gonna be individualized. We have to give ourselves grace for where we're at. This pattern, this behavior, these thoughts, these feelings, they don't happen overnight. They're starting from somewhere, they come from somewhere, and so we really have to look back and start addressing some of those things so that we can start breaking away from some of those habits.

KATIE:

Mm-hmm.

KRISTEN:

One of the things that I always like to tell people is stop putting food in categories that it doesn't belong in. So, food doesn't need to be in a specific category. It can be just food. It can be fuel. Because at the end of the day, that's what all food is. There are foods that are more nutrient dense, that's why they're fuel. They're gonna really fuel your body really well, but there are fun foods that also fuel a lot of other things. They fuel our emotions, they fuel moments where maybe we are needing a little bit more energy. Let's take for women. Every single month, we have something that comes along that causes us to need a little bit more energy, and we have those severe cravings, specifically for sweet foods, and there's a reason behind that chemically. And so, I think we have to get out of that head space where we have to eat a certain way all the time,'cause we don't. It can be varied from day to day. There can be days where, you know what? It's not a cooking day, and we're gonna DoorDash, and we're gonna enjoy a milkshake, and that's okay. There are gonna be other days where those veggies are something good. And the thing too is as we start incorporating more fuel foods in, let's say we're eating a diet that's mostly fun. So, we have a lot of fun foods in there, maybe not a lot of fuel. We start adding in some of those fuel foods, some of those good vitamins, those good minerals. All of those good foods that are gonna actually gonna promote health within our body, our body will actually start to crave some of those. KATIE: Yeah. And so, we can have that balance a little bit easier. You'll notice some of the other cravings start to diminish a little bit and then we can enjoy those, in moderation every once in a while, or every week, or every day. I actually keep chocolate here. I'm like the designated chocolate person in this office, and everybody knows to come here for chocolate. But just because I have chocolate sitting in my corner doesn't mean I eat it every single day, but I will allow myself to eat it if I want it for that day. It takes a lot of training, it takes a lot of undoing things that we may be used to, but just know you don't always have to clean your plate. You can always add veggies in there somewhere, even if it's something we don't think about like a salsa on a taco. There's always a way to add some type of veggie to it. Veggies to pizza if you want to add whatever kind of veggies to that, that's a really good way to fuel up on that. And just knowing that it's okay to have all things.

KATIE:

Okay. I love it. I think it actually ended up being more simple for us to talk through than I expected it to be. I was like, we're gonna have to have like a cheat sheet that we add to these show notes or something. But, okay.

KRISTEN:

No, it's really easy. And I think we stress ourselves out so much about food. And it doesn't have to be super complicated. It can just be very basic. And sometimes even that. Just taking some of that stress away knowing, you know what? It's okay if I go through the Whataburger drive-through today, but what can I do to add a little bit of extra fuel to that? Well, maybe I do ask for extra veggies. Maybe I only eat half of it and then if I can find a salad somewhere then I'll do a little bit of that too.

KATIE:

Yeah, on that note, I probably will be having tacos tonight with like a side salad or something like that.

KRISTEN:

You can also add veggies too on the top of it.

KATIE:

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Agreed.

KRISTEN:

Peppers, onions.

KATIE:

In my mind somehow, I'm like, "That's not enough, it doesn't count." KRISTEN: It always counts. Because if we don't count it, then where are we getting it from? KATIE: Yeah, true. Okay.

KRISTEN:

So, it always counts. We have to give ourselves grace, I'm telling you.

KATIE:

All right, well this has been great. Thanks so much, thanks for being here, thanks for talking me through this, but also all of our listeners. I know everyone's gonna probably have taken a lot away from this, so I really appreciate your time.

KRISTEN:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me.

KATIE:

Scott, I think my biggest takeaway was that -- or what I needed to hear perhaps was that one meal will not ruin your daily progress or your weekly progress to eating in moderation.

SCOTT:

I think that's a big one. I have some foods that I would say are pretty nonnegotiable, even as far as healthy eating is like --

KATIE:

Okay, I need to hear your list.

SCOTT:

Oh, well I mean I gotta have Whataburger.

KATIE:

Mm-hmm.

SCOTT:

And ice cream is one that I've always been super attached to. We keep it in the freezer. And there have been times where I've not had it intentionally in the house because I knew I would wanna eat it all the time, and it just made me upset because I would --

KATIE:

Or want it even more. And then when you have it, you like, resource guard it.

SCOTT:

'Cause I would just be sitting at home like,"I really wish I had ice cream right now." And it would just be really frustrating. But now I do have it in the house and I just eat, maybe less of it. KATIE: Mm-hmm. I guess when I was younger, I would just make giant, heaping bowls of ice cream, and it think the first time that I made one in front of my wife, she was like,"What are you doing?[Laughter] That is an insane amount of ice cream."

KATIE:

You know, that's a good point of moderation too. Kind of having, like, input from people around you, and like seeing how are other people around me eating? And like, yeah, someone questioning your bowl of ice cream might help.

SCOTT:

Yeah, so I think I've gradually downsized my ice cream, and I don't think it's reduced my enjoyment of it. I think that's -- part of moderation is portion control there. So, that has helped. But I'm still eating ice cream.

KATIE:

I'm glad you brought up that not having foods you like become frustrating'cause, I mean, clearly this episode for me became like food psychology, and basically me talking to her like a therapist, I felt like, about how we should think about food. It's crazy, like, how limiting yourself can then sort of drive you to eating more. And I liked her point that, like, we should be thinking about how food brings us joy, not trying to like, keep ourselves away from that. So, I really liked that.

SCOTT:

Yeah, I think that was good. And I think just adding healthier foods to those potentially unhealthy foods is a good way of balancing it out without totally cutting it out of your life.

KATIE:

That was a good refresher for me. I had forgotten that she was the one that, about a year ago, had talked to me about, you know, fuel foods and fun foods. And even when you're having, a, you know, fun food like your burger or something from Whataburger, you know, pair it with something that's got those veggies and stuff. So like, get the burger with like tomato, onions, lettuce, pickles. Like, load it up with the veggies. And like, that helps. I really have started doing that, and I will say it does, most of the time, keep me from overeating at meals 'cause I do, kind of, fill up faster. The one caveat there being, like, your ice cream is my French fries. I just -- I just cannot stop eating what's in front of me when it comes to French fries, so.

SCOTT:

I think the speed factor of how quickly you're eating is a big one that hits home for me. I don't know where I got it from but I have always eaten very fast. Like, if I get Whataburger, I'll put it down in five -- Well, I'll put it down really fast. And I always think I'm hungry by the time I'm done still, but within a few minutes, I'm like,"Why did I eat that entire burger in five minutes? I feel terrible." And so, maybe I wouldn't eat as much if I just slowed down a little.

KATIE:

That's a really good point. That happened to me the other night. I was having my little dessert treat thing. It's like I buy the individual, like, mini Reese's peanut butter cups. I really only need two to feel full, like a dessert after dinner, but every now and then when I eat 'em too fast, like, I want a third one'cause they taste so good. And then when I have the third one, then I feel gross after. And so, like, I finally -- now that I know my number, I'm like, okay, I eat the first two slower and then make yourself stop. And if in five minutes, you want another one, fine. Go get the third, maybe you're hungrier today. But I almost never eat the third anymore. I don't know, it's just funny. Like, I think that's a really good point. I think it's like, again, the hunger cues and slowing down and like letting yourself tell you if you're hungry so that you can enjoy that stuff without feeling bad about it later, or like physically gross,'cause I don't like that.

SCOTT:

Right.

KATIE:

How do you feel about her comments about, kind of, tracking food and stuff like that?

SCOTT:

I think that it was a little, I guess, liberating to hear is like counting calories, you can do it if you want, but it may not be all that helpful. I still think I like to know the numbers as far as what macronutrients are in foods and roughly what sort of calorie count I'm looking at. But I don't think that going forward, I'm gonna sit there and track every packet of ketchup that I eat perhaps. And maybe just have an idea of what a healthy amount of food looks like and feels like to eat rather than just being super strict on myself about the numbers'cause I think that can be a little demoralizing when you're out of calories and you go to bed hungry. And that just has an overall more negative impact than the calories you may have saved.

KATIE:

Yeah, I agree. In theory too, I think I would enjoy tracking my food for the same reason as you mentioned, like the macronutrients inside of each kind of food, making sure that I'm, like, hitting my fiber intake that I'm, like, aiming for, stuff like that. Well, I'm glad we both took something away from this conversation. I definitely think we have demystified moderation. I mean, a lot of what she said was kind of like it depends or I'm gonna challenge you to think of it this way. But I feel very much more enabled to feel good about how I'm eating. SCOTT: Yeah, for sure. I think that it was an overall positive message about eating rather than just restricting yourself and putting yourself in a bad -- a worse place than you may have been before with food. KATIE: Well, all right. That's gonna do it for us this week on On Health with Houston Methodist. Be sure to share, like, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We drop new episodes on Tuesday mornings. Until then, stay tuned and stay healthy.♪ ♪